In early March 2023, I picked up my second RIA 52000 Pro Ultra Match 6″ HC 10mm pistol – more affectionately known as “The Big Rock”, which is exactly what it is. I sold my first Big Rock many years ago because I needed the funds and regretted it once I started making custom 10mm mags for whole family of high-cap 10mm and .40 S&W RIA pistols. I couldn’t buy a new one at the time because Armscor, who owns RIA, only seems to make them periodically. Maybe 2-3 years later after I wished I had it and was looking, 52000s started popping up on my saved searches – Gunbroker alerted me first and I bought one about a week later. [A number of places have them now including GrabAGun – click here]
I should add that as soon as I ordered the pistol, the next thing I did was to order another set of grip panels from Mark Browne. His grips just look and feel great compared to the rather boring but durable G10 composite grip panels that come with the pistols.
Bottom left is the new Big Rock with its factory grip Panels. Above it and to the right is the 51679 with Mark’s wood panels. The lighting doesn’t do the wood justice.Here is a better view of the wood on the 51679 plus you can always go to the blog post about it and see more.
The new panels for the Big Rock arrived
I emailed Mark and told him how much I liked the first set and he said he’d look for one with plenty of grain and contrast. What showed up was awesome.
…Wow…
Fitting them to the Big Rock
While RIA does use modern CNC machines to make the frames, the funnel fitment can vary – I know this based on clients that have fitment issues with the relatively shorter 9mm mags using Dawson Base Plates. Either they do not use a jig or it moves and wheter the funnel sits exactly can very. Why this matters is that you may find the panels go right on or you may need to fit them. DO NOT FORCE THEM! So let’s step through this.
Each OEM grip panel is held in place with two unique Allen head screws. Remove the screws and the panel lifts right off. Note in this photo how very little material is between the grip screws hole and the funnel – that’s tight. The pistols are made in the Philippines and then need to travel across the Pacific. They liberally coat these pistols in preservative oil and this is one example of how much they use. Have a towel or rag handy to wipe this stuff off before you start installing the wood panels. By the way, this is typical of all the RIA 1911 pistols and again highlights why you need to clean them.This side went right on without adjustments being needed. That was an unexpected pleasant surprise. They panels need to seat fully without pressure being needed. If you try to force them in, something will snap.Everything is nice and flat and the screws went in without forcing them. The screws are installed until they are firm – not so tight the wood snaps – they just have to keep the grip panel in position, You do need to use a dab of medium-strength screw threadlocker such as Loc-Tite Blue to keep the screws from backing out.The other side had issues. Teh funnel was riding high here and the panel would not even seat fully. To adjust the wood, take a single cut file and remove a bit of wood from the bottom and try over and over.Fitting is slow work with wood. It is better to be able to take more off than wish you could put it back on. After maybe 5-10 minutes I thought I had the panel good to go but it was still riding too high and the screw could not seat properly. So, more fiiling and testing until it fit completely. Take your time and you will get a nice fit without a gap. This is a great example of time, patience and handwork can generate a far better end result than being in a rush with a sander and taking off too much. The bottom is the new Big Rock.The top is the new Big Rock with it’s 6″ barrel and slide. I really like the gloss finish. It really brings out the contrast in the wood.
Note, I have to buy all of my parts – nothing here was paid for by sponsors, etc. I do make a small amount if you click on an ad and buy something but that is it. You’re getting my real opinion on stuff.
If you find this post useful, please share the link on Facebook, with your friends, etc. Your support is much appreciated and if you have any feedback, please email me at info@roninsgrips.com. Please note that for links to other websites, I may be paid via an affiliate program such as Avantlink, Impact, Amazon and eBay.
As some of you may know, we make custom magazines for the Armscor Rock Island Armory (RIA) A2 HC family of .40 and 10mm pistols. Once in a while I get to talk to a new owner before they go to the range and either they ask for advice or I give it regardlesss 🙂 I will tell anyone that will listen that they need to clean, lubricate and cycle their pistols 200 times before they go to the range. I’ve been sharing this advice for years but never really had evidence. Guess what? Now I do and I truly hope people will take this to heart and do it.
I recently purchased a RIA 52000 Big Rock – this is their 6″ barrelled 10mm match pistol. I had one years ago that I sold when I needed money and regretted it – especially after I started making the custom mags. What I am going to show you is true of all Rock Island 1911-style pistols – not just the A2 HC models – and for almost all semi-automatic factory-produced firearms. They are not ready to go out of the box and if you take them straight to the range they are going to fail a lot, you’re going to get frustrated, blame the gun/ammo/mag/dealer and it’s not their fault so please read the following and heed the advice.
Opening the Factory Box
For RIA 1911 pistols, they ship them in a bag absolutely coated in some kind of oil – just what I am not sure. Do not look at that and think it is all lubricated and ready to go. It absolutely is not and it is actually pretty dirty – you need to get rid of all of that including the junk in the bore.
STOP is right. What is in the bag is not ready to go.First off, wipe it down. It will be drenched in oil to keep it from rusting. The 52000 Big Rock is definitely big.This is what your white towel will look like. Note it is not just clean oil – there is debris in it and it’s not inteded to lubricate but to prevent rust. This stuff is everywhere in the pistol and we need to field strip the pistol, clean and oil it to ensure proper functioning.
Now you may be thinking your Glock was pristine compared to that and while it was cleaner it was also pretty dry and needed to be lubricated. The Rock Islands are decent but they need to be cleaned up.
How about the barrel?
The anti-corrosion “oil” and grime are everywhere in the pistol.
This is a real photo of an area of the bore before cleaning. It was captured with my Teslong borescope. The brass or copper color is probably from the test firing they did but the main thing for you to see is all of the preservative and grime in there, You do not want to shoot with this junk in there as it could adversely affect the pistol in any number of ways including affecting accuracy, By the way, the Teslong Rigid Rifle Borescope with 1080P resolution is pretty remarkable. I really like mine – it’s many times better than anything I have experimented with that I could afford.I have used Ramrodz for years – the giant Q-tips on the right – to clean pistols. I just started trying the Clenzoil Bore Stix (on the left) and they seem to be decent with the advantage of having a cleaner/lubricant on them already. The Ramrodz being unprepared let me decide what I want to coat them with given the situation at hand so pros and cons with both. BTW- the sticks can snap easily so you hold them close up by the “bulb” when you insert them and then run the back and forth with the stick.Here’s what the first Ramrodz looked like after I ran it up and down the bore a few times. It was coated with Kroil penetrating oil to help break things free. You can see the grime that came out. I then decided to try a Bore Stix with just its normal coating.The Clenzoil BoreStix seemed to remove even more grime than the Ramrodz but it is hard to say because the Kroil was in there working as I switched from the RamRodz to the Bore Stix.This is after cleaning and lubricating. Again, the Teslong borescope is a game changer for me in terms of actually seeing the bore in considerable detail.
What I want you to take away from this section is to clean the bore – you can absolutely use your favorite method – patches, boresnake, whatever – but definitely clean it.
Field Stripping the Pistol
Armscor includes a half-way decent manual about how to field-strip your 1911 and I recommend you read it. Some of their models have barrel bushings and they have at least two models of full length guide rods that I know of. You just need to break the pistol down into its major groups – do not start taking apart the frame unless you seriously know what you are doing or you are going to get a hard lesson in how a 1911 goes together internally and it is not simple enough for the average shooter in my honest opinion. If you are a person that assembles 1911s from the bare frame – go ahead and do it. Have fun. If you have never disassembled and reassembled a 1911 – don’t. You don’t have to at this point is the bottom line.
One unique thing about the Big Rock you need to know is the unique full length guide rod (FLGR) they used and as far as I know, it is not in any other RIA pistol. If you have one of the 10mms, you are aware of the FLGR design which uses a pin to capture the two halves of the FLGR from separating, The Big Rock’s FLGR is threaded. To remove it, you turn counter-clockwise quite a few turns to unscrew the two halves and separate them. Now pay attention – that is a 20 pound spring in there and it will launch one half or the other so capture or retain the assembly by securing it with your other hand to prevent you from digging around for a launched part.
That slotted part is the FLGR and it is removed by turning it counter clockwise. I was taking pictures here – remove it with the slide closed so there is less tension on the spring. Notice the dent in the outer edge of the barrek at about the 5 o-clock position. The crown was fine and that’s what really matters. I’m not going to bother sending it back.
I’m not going to write a comprehensive guide to lubricating a 1911, read your pistol’s manual. I will tell you I now use ALG’s Go-Juice which is a thin grease on anything that slides. Before the ALG, I used Super Lube Synthetic Grease applied with an acid brush and before that I used wheel bearing grease. I would at least recommend doing this while the weapon breaks in. If you want to go to an oil later after it has worn in, then do it by all means. Right now though, you need the extra lubrication the grease brings. If surfaces slide together, use grease.
If they turn, use oil. I am all over the place trying oils. Right now, I am using ALG’s biosynthetic stuff. Don’t ask me what is in it. Before that I have used a ton of different oils – MGW, Super Lube, Mobil 1, etc., etc., etc.
Getting a jump on breaking in the pistol
You will hear guys call it “breaking in”, “wearing in”, “letting the parts get to know each other” – they all refer to any firearm needing to smooth out parts through their normal cycling. Expensive guns, such as customs and semi-customs, an experienced gunsmith used huning stones, rubberize abrasive bits or whatever was their preffered tool, to get rid of the tooling marks and sharp edges to give you a smooth weapon right out of the box.
Well, RIA is not expensive and they don’t spend a ton of time fitting and tuning their parts for a perfect fit. You know what? I’m fine with that – it’s easy to smooth things out but first I want to show you why you need to do this via some digital photos courtesy of an Andonstar AD246S-M digital microscope.
The following are example photos showing the tooling marks on various areas that need to slide freely. The tooling marks are everywhere and cause friction until the places where surfaces contact start to wear down the protruding areas:
Bottom of slideSample of tooling marks on slide rail areaTooling marks on the receiver’s slide area.Front of the left side of the receiver – the shiny areas are already making contact with the slide and wearing in.
Again, the above are all examples. Areas starting to shine are wearing in and starting to smooth out. I’d maybe cycled the slide a dozes or so times before the above photos were taken as I wanted to show before.
Now, there are tons of things you could do with honing storines, rubberized abrasive bits and even with lapping stones. If you want to do one or more of those, go for it. I have an even simpler solution – rack the slide open and closed a couple hundred times. Literally, don’t have a mag in it and work it back and forth over and over. It’s a workout with that 20# spring but it will accelerate wear-in dramatically. Think about it, a lot of firearms get more reliable just under a 100 rounds. You are really smoothing things out at 200, What you will notice is that if you do the above, you will not waste a lot of time and money dealing with jams.
How do I know this? I have owned a number of RIA pistols over the years. My test pistols that I use to test each mag before they leave have been handcycled thousands of times and the slide feels like that of a high-end pistol – like it is sliding on glass.
The following photos show contact areas after thousands of cycles:
Shiny areas neans the parts wore together and smoothed out.In this area the tooling marks are all but gone.Again, lots of wear – only the deepest tooling marks are still there.The bottom of the slide is worn smooth.
Guys are always surprised how smooth these pistols are and then even more surprised when I tell them they are unmodified RIA pistols that have had their slides cycled thousands of times.
So, do you need thousands of times? No, just go for 200 and you can do more if you really want to.
Last comment on the FLGR and reassembling it
I seriously started hating on the unique Big Rock FLGR design when it came time to put it back together. You are fighting a 20# spring and I couldn’t remember how I did my last one years ago or find any tips or tricks about how to do it. The best thing I can tell you is that you need to secure the back half against the barrel link with the left hand. Insert the front section with the right and try to get front threaded insert into the hood of the back, try to hold them in approximate alignment as you try to screw the front half back in. Translation – it sucks and I have no tips.
I haven’t gotten this frustrated iin a while. The FLGR assembly is those three parts – the 20# spring and the two sliver rods. The one saving grace, the only saving grace for that matter, is the design of how they come together. The two shafts need to line up with the front long part with the slot sliding into the short stubby back part hat has a hooded opening. This photo was mere seconds before I launched the back half six feet away where it luckily hit a wall and dropped in plain sight because I wasn’t keeping it secure enough with my left hand. Note, I still have a 1911 recoil spring plug somewhere that launched in my shop and was never found.This is just to prove it is possible to get them back together. Note the purple ALG thin grease on the slide.
Summary
I hope this post helps impress on you the need to clean, lubricate and cycle your pistol, or whatever firearm, before you go to the range the first time. I do this myself and have shared it with many, many folks over the years and the feedback has always been positive.
By the way, the majority of guys who contact me hating on the RIA pistols did not break them in so I walk them through this. The second largest majority are really frustrated with the OEM magazine.
If you find this post useful, please share the link on Facebook, with your friends, etc. Your support is much appreciated and if you have any feedback, please email me at info@roninsgrips.com. Please note that for links to other websites, I may be paid via an affiliate program such as Avantlink, Impact, Amazon and eBay.
We’ve made and sold hundreds of our custom magazines for the Rock Island Armory (RIA) A2 HC (High Cap) 10mm & .40 S&W pistols. These pistols are based on the Para design with a staggereed magazines that hold 15 rounds normally. Our mags hold 16 and are slightly longer.
The main reason I am writing this post is that our magazines use tubes originally made for the Para P14 pistol chambered in .45 ACP so they are stamped “P14-45” and there hasn’t been an elegant way to change that – the tubes are hardened and trying to stamp something else in would be messy. A laser engraver is an option but I don’t have one.
I was working on another project involving “permanent” labels – these are labels that have a really strong adhesive and last far better than regular labels. “Permanent” is a marketing term though – they can wear off, etc.
At any rate, it dawned on me that with the right size, I could have a clear thick vinyl label made with white ink that has “10mm & .40 S&W” written on it and that’s just what I did. You’ll find these on the baseplates going forward
So, yes, our tubes still have P14-.45 on them but now they have the correct chambering on the decal on the baseplate.
This is a normal baseplate with the label.
This is a baseplate that has been riveted closed because the tube has been blocked to 10 rounds. We also make 15 round limited mags. They are for folks who live in an area that has magazine limits.
By the way, if you ever want to confirm whether one of my mags is for 10mm or .40 S&W, the gap between the front feed lips will be between .370 and .390.
If you are interested in buying a magazine, please click here to go to our store. All of our magazines are converted, tuned and tested by hand one at a time.
If you find this post useful, please share the link on Facebook, with your friends, etc. Your support is much appreciated and if you have any feedback, please email me at info@roninsgrips.com. Please note that for links to other websites, I may be paid via an affiliate program such as Avantlink, Impact, Amazon and eBay.
One of the things I enjoy about the firearm industry is meeting neat people. Dan Barnett contacted me a few weeks back. He is a certified “polymer” pistol armorer and had recently got into 1911s. As part of the journey, he purchased a used Rock Island Armory 51679 Tac Ultra FS HC 9mm and was trying to sort out why it was failing to eject way more than he cared for and he would have an empty case and a round trying to be fed in the slide at the same time. He and I hit it off because we both like the soft shooting Rocks.
Dan’s 51679 Tac Ultra
Because of my past experiences with RIA Tac Ultra 9mm extractors failing, I asked him how his looked and he told me that it looked nice and sharp – no broken parts. I send him my blog post on extractors and recommended he switch his to a Wilson Combat if he ever runs into a problem or wants to make the upgrade anyways.
There was a possibility the extractor tension was too light but I figured we’d assume it was okay for the moment. Note, if you open a slide slowly and watch the cartridge or casing being extracted, the extractor should maintain control all the way to the ejector. If it doesn’t and the extractor looks ok then it is most likely the tension and there are specialty gauges out there for testing and setting them.
With the extractor tentatively ruled out, what I told him was that not many people understand how critical the magazine feed lips are to proper feeding and ejection of a 1911 and that his Tac Ultra was just that – an oversize 1911.
What can happen is that the front feed lip gap can be set too wide allowing the front of the cartridge to tilt up in the air too far. Then, as the newly extracted case comes backwards, the riding too high bullet pushes the spent case up just enough to miss the ejector. Honestly, there is a really delicate brilliant dance going on inside a 1911 and all it takes is something to be off just enough and things go wrong.
Dan took his calipers to the four mags he had and the front of the feed lips that can be adjusted were all over 0.320″ and I recommend starting somewhere between 0.308 to 0.312″. There isn’t a magic number due to all of the variables one can encounter. Too wide and it can cause a failure to eject or stove piping. You can even have rounds falling out of the mag. Too narrow and you have the cartridge moving straight ahead, smashing nose first into the feedramp and stopping / jamming right then and there.
You can see the ejector is just above the rear rim of the dummy round and the round is angled up slightly. If that nose is up too much, it will nudge the extracting case high enough to miss or intermittently miss the extractor.
This is looking down at the face of the slide – what I want you to see is that there is nothing there to limit the round from working its way towards the top of the slide. The extractor has a firm grip on the rim of the case but that’s it.
Dan asked what he should do, I told him to disassemble the magazine and then carefully hold the magazine budy (the “tube”) on a table or better yet a piece of wood that lets the bottom lips dangle but supports the magazine all the upwards. Then lightly tap on each front side of the magazine to close the gap. Light tap left, light tap right, and measure. Repeat until it gets to the right gap – either via measurement or testing the mag with some dummy rounds.
This is a Steelworx machined stainless steel 9mm dummy round and what I prefer to use these days for testing. I no longer use the blue A-Zoom snap caps as they are not dimensionally identical to a true 115 9mm FMJ round. To adjust the lips, disassemble the mag and then tap on the front of the feed lips only – in the case you can see they are tapered in and are closest to the red. You do not need to hit on the other parts. By tapping on the front the steel lip will gracefully bend in the direction you are tapping it.
Dan adjusted his gap to be around around 0.3095 by looking at where the bullet would hit the ramp/enter the chamber and testing . Your gap could be different from his.
By the way, the back of the magazine is fixed due to the folded metal ears that form the back of the lips. You can’t adjust them much at all or they will buckle or break. I leave them alone.
This tapping doesn’t take a ton of effort so use a light hammer and light taps – this is not a “mongo smash” moment because if you crush the neck of the mag, it’s game over unless you have a mandrel to open it back up. These days I use a light body hammer to do the work.
If you go too far and need to open the lips, use malleable chain pliers also known as chandelier or lamp chain pliers to open the lips back up. External snap ring pliers can also work but are not my first choice. The chain pliers distribute the pressure along a larger area of the lips vs. the relative point pressure of the snap ring pliers’ pins.
Feed lip gaps will change with use – this is not a one time exercise and why it is a good idea to number your mags. This way you can write down the setting for each magazine or know that when you get back front the range which magazine you need to take a look at.
How did the adjustments work out for Dan? He finished a 1,000 round tactical range session with zero malfunctions. I told him to have fun because there is always something to adjust or tinker with on a 1911 and I mean that in a good way.
So, I hope this post helps you out!
If you find this post useful, please share the link on Facebook, with your friends, etc. Your support is much appreciated and if you have any feedback, please email me at info@roninsgrips.com. Please note that for links to other websites, I may be paid via an affiliate program such as Avantlink, Impact, Amazon and eBay.
Rock Island Armory (RIA) is a brand name that is owned by Armscor Global Defense located in Marakina, Philippines. Armscor obtained a license from the Philippine government in 1952 to begin making firearms. In 1980 it became Arms Corporation of the Philippines (ArmsCor) and in the mid-80s they bought the US brand “Rock Island Armory” and began exporting firearms to the US. They have invested in quality improvement and automation to create their wide variety of firearms offered today. They also have opened plants in the US – one in Stevensville, MT, and the other in Pahrumo, NV.
In March 2022, a Philippine TV crew visited the Armscor factory in Marakina and produced this nice video that focuses mainly on their 1911 production area:
The reason I wanted to share this with you is that RIA pistols do have a long history and Armscor is not some fly by night company. This is my opinion – I would describe RIA 1911 pistols as being designed, built and sold to shooters who want an acceptable 1911 without spending a fortune. They are not claiming to turn out semi-custom pistols – instead, good enough pistols at an affordable price point.
In marketing, when you are trying to hit a certain price point to attract the buyers you are after, you have to figure out the features, the materials, and process combination to get you there. Now reliability and accuracy are features also so this needs to be factored in – the pistols need to be good enough but not necessarily over the top – even though we wish they were.
Ok, but are the 9mm HC 17 round pistols “good”?
So let’s go back to the question – are they good? For the price, yes. You can’t compare them to far higher end pistols such as Stacatto or Bul – it’s simply not fair. It would be like comparing a daily-driver economy model Ford or GM car to a BMW. Yes, they are all cars but the engineering and attention to detail during manufacturing in the BMW are going to be very different. They are for different markets comprised on people with different disposable income levels and tastes – and have different price points.
The two pistols I am discussing to be clear are the 9mm RIA A2 HC pistols – the 51679 Tac Ultra FS HC and the 56645 Pro Ultra Match HC – by the way, FS means “Full Size” and HC means “high capacity” because they hold 17 rounds in staggered magazines.
The frames and slides are made from 4140 alloy steel via CNC and they do have QA steps. The barrel seems to be pretty decent but then the price point issue begins to creap in.
I bought four of the A2 HC 80% frames back when I was doing R&D on magazines for the 10mm/..40 S&W calibers (they use the same magazine design) and also the 9mm magazines. What not everyone knows is that these pistols also share a common frame. I installed the RIA magazine catch and ejector but they milled all of the holes and applied, as you can see, a very decent parkerized finish.
Here are two 80% frames with the top one holding a 10mm magazine and dummy red A-Zoom round. The bottom one has a 9mm magazine. The blue round is an A-zoom snap cap and I don’t use or recommend them any longer as the bullet is shaped very differently than a 115gr or 124gr FMJ round so you may think feeding will work when it doesn’t. I sure found that out the hard way.ĵ
For example, to keep costs down, Armscor uses metal injection molded (MIM) parts. I know through first hand experience, the extractors are MIM and they will not have the longevity of a forged part made from tool steel such as one from Wilson Combat *but* the extractors can be replaced if you ever have a problem so it’s not like you suddenly have a boat anchor and that’s one of the beauties of 1911-style pistols – there is a huge aftermarket parts industry and tons of websites/forums out there to help you sort out what is going on not to mention 1911 gunsmiths and that Armscor has good warranty service – I’ve had to avail on it twice – one on a 6″ 10mm Big Rock and also on a 9mm Tac Ultra that had failure to extract issues … and on that one, there was something seriously wrong because just replacing the extractor didn’t work. [Click here for a post I wrote about my extractor journeys with RIA 9mms].
The top is the original Armscor extractor and the claw snapped off. The bottom is a forged tool steel Wilscon Combat. If you run into an issue, read the post I wrote and upgrade to a Wilson.
They also use a parkerized finish and its applied very nicely. There is a but coming – but parkerizing leaves a rough finish and means they need to wear in more compared to other brands that use a different finish and/or have careful polishing and tuning while parts are assembled.
Every parkerized RIA pistol that I have seen has a very nice consistent finish on it. The left pistol is the TAC and you can tell due to the bushing, normal barrel and no checkering on the grip. The right pistol is the Match. It has a bull barrel, full length guide rod and checkering on the front of the grip. The rear sights differ but you can’t see them in this photo.
That’s an 80% frame with no modifications right next to it’s finished cousin – a 51679 Tac Ultra. Under the pistol is one of our tuned Mec-Gar P18 magazines with a Dawon +200 base plate. Click here for our 9mm RIA magazine offerings.
Conclusion
This is my way of saying they are good enough. You are buying an entry level pistol that has been on the market for many years and word would get around quickly if they were utter junk. Does the gun need wear in? Yes. Might there be issues? Yes. Do they have warranty support? Yes and they do stand behind and repair their pistols.
Would I recommend these RIA Tac Ultra FS and Pro Match Ultra HC pistols to someone looking for an entry level 17 round 9mm 1911 style pistol? You may find it odd but yes I would and I’d explain the above.
I hope this helps you out.
1/6/2023 Update: I’ve had zero problems since writing this post. Both pistols have cycled thousands of times during magazine testing (meaning rounds are cycled by hand but not actually fired) and the slides are smooth as glass. I took both to the range recently and they functioned just fine with both 115 and 124gr bulk FMJ – I think the 115gr was CCI and the 124gr was S&B if I recall right.
Note, I have to buy all of my parts – nothing here was paid for by sponsors, etc. I do make a small amount if you click on an ad and buy something but that is it. You’re getting my real opinion on stuff.
If you find this post useful, please share the link on Facebook, with your friends, etc. Your support is much appreciated and if you have any feedback, please email me at info@roninsgrips.com. Please note that for links to other websites, I may be paid via an affiliate program such as Avantlink, Impact, Amazon and eBay.
This post reflects a journey I’ve been on regarding making and selling magazines for the 9mm Rock Island Armory (RIA) FS A2 pistols. These pistols are based on Para Ordnance designs that use a staggered magazine that can accomodate 15+ rounds in a fattened 1911 grip. Think of them as 1911 pistols on steroids with a fat grip the holds more rounds they hold more rounds so sometimes RIA calls them “HC” for high capacity.
These are my two 9mm test platforms. The top pistol is the 56645 Pro Ultra Match HC (you can see the checkering on the front strap of the grip) and the bottom is 51679 Tac Ultra FS HC.
For over a year now, I’ve been making magazines for the FS A2 pistols chambered in 10mm and .40 S&W. The interesting thing is that 9mm, .38 Super, .40 S&W and 10mm all use the same frame. You’d think making the 9mm mags would be an easy jump – I did at least — maybe it was just me.
The 10mm round is bigger than 9mm – it is fatter and longer. You don’t think about that a lot until you are trying to get the ejecting case to hit the ejector – the 10mm round is a hell of a lot easier to make hit the ejector than the 9mm. Also, the relatively short 9mm round has a long way to travel before it goes into the chamber. I found myself having to kick out some assumptions I had for magazines in order to get the 9mm round to reliably work.
In general, I now understand why the 1911 community is so fast to cast suspicion on the magazines when feed and ejection problems are happening. John Browning was an absolute genius and the 1911 design shows it but it does need all of the parts to be working together correctly to deliver a reliabile pistol.
Oh yeah, the magazines can make or break reliability. Let me share with you some observations I’ve made so far about the magazine after making a few hundred of the 9mm models either modifying P18 magazines (.38/9mm) or P16 mags (10/.40).
What about feed lip length?
The feed lips are the part of the magazine that hold the top round down and at the right angle. If they are too short, the round tends to be presented at too high of an angle and if they are too long, the front gap may not be adjustable enough to support the feed angle needed.
The blue rounds are A-Zoom Snap Caps. I use them during magazine prototyping and testing rather than live ammo The magazine lips are long pieces of rounded sheet metal that are going up the sides of the cartridge and are both positioning and retaining the round. Note the plastic “shelf” of the follower that is on the left bottom edge of each magazine that is level with the metal body. When the last round is fed from the magazine, the follower rises and that shelf is what engages the slide lock lever to put upwards pressure on it. When the slides travels rearword with the extraction and ejection of the last round, the slide lock level pushes up and locks the slide open ready for the next magazine to be fired.
The original 1911 was designed for .45 ACP but we are feeding a little short round from the back of the magazine towards the chamber a mile away. How can we maintain control? The short answer is have longer feed lips on the magazine. These longer lips are what get the relatively small 9mm round from the back of the magazine all the way into the chamber.
“We’ve got a long way to go and a short time to get there” were the famous words in “East Bound and Down” by Jerry Reed in the movie classic Smokey and the Bandit. The feed lips need to control the feeding of the cartridge all the way from the back of the magazine to the point the bullet engages the feed ramp and then starts to go into chamber. A 9mm Luger cartrdge is 1.169″ long. In comparison, 10mm Auto is 1.260″ overall. and .45 ACP is 1.275″. You might thing those differences are small but they definitely impact the design and operation of the pistol – they need to be planned for if you want reliability.
The reason I listed this section is that the length of the feed lips can vary depending on the model of pistol so if you are trying to use a magazine from another type of pistol you may find you need to trim the feed lips back. I didn’t have to change the P16 or P18 mags for the 9mm but I did need to modify the P16 Para mags to feed reliability in RIA 10mm and .40 S&W pistols.
What happens if the front feed lip gap is too wide? You tend to get a Failure to Eject (FTE) or the Slide locks open prematurely
The feed lip gap at the front of the magazine controls where the cartridge is going vertically – the angle towards the chamber. Increase the gap and the front of cartridge rises and decrease it and the angle goes down. But wait, there’s more.
If the front of the round pushes up too much, it will cause the extracting case to slide up the breech face and out of position thus missing the ejector bar you can see just above the rear of the cartidge. The tell tale is that you have the new round and the old case in the back of the slide at the same time.
Now here’s the first gotcha: The feed lip gap still controls the rise of the bullet in the front but if it goes too far, the bullet is going to interfere with extraction, pushing the extracted case upwards on the breach face of the slide and out of position to correctly engage the ejector and all of a sudden you have the old case in the slide, a new round trying to feed and you have a jam. If you go for a front feed lips gap of .305-.308″ you will be fine. Depending on your pistol once you get somewhere around .320″, you are going to cause the ejection problem I just mentioned
There’s an interesting design issue with all 1911 breech faces – they are flat. The extractor pushes the case to the right in this photo. The ejector bar is exiting its cut out from the breech face in the lower right but there is nothing to truly limit upwards travel.
I’ve spent a lot of time chasing this dimension because you tend to get better feeding the more the bullet is oriented towards the chamber but with the 9mm you have to be mindful of the impacts on the the ejecting cartridge.
By the way, in addition to interfering with ejection, a feed lip gap that is too wide can allow the follower to travel too far upwards and prematurely lock the slide open with one cartridge remaining in the magazine.
I should point out that the most likely cause of a failure to eject (FTE) is a faulty magazine. The second most likely is a worn or failing extractor. It probably is not the ejector bar.
What happens if the front feed lip gap is too narrow? You tend to get a failure to feed (FTF)
If you move the feed lips to close together, the new round that needs to be fed into the chamber comes in at too flat of an angle and smashes straight into the feed ramp. On one hand the 9mm bullet is rounded abruptly but the feed ramp is quite abrupt. I tend to find that somewhere under .302″ this happens but I haven’t done a lot of testing on this dimension because I have been more focused on wanting the cartridge angled up vs. down.
The round travels up the feed ramp but it needs have enough of an upward angle to ride the ramp up. If it is too shallow it will slam the bullet into the ramp and stop. Note that RIA did polish the ramp – that was an unexpected nice touch. In general, I’d recommend polishing the ramp smooth to aid in feeding. Also, look at the shape of the snap cap – it mimics a classic full metal jacket 115gr bullet. The curvature of the bullet will aid in feeding. Different bullet shapes can affect feeding in some pistols and you may need to tweak certain mags for certain rounds – it’s next to impossible to guess so test your pistol with certain combinations of cartrdiges and magazines to ensure they are reliable. You may find your pistol likes some and hates others. I’d probably just move to another cartridge if it were me and my pistol had issues with a given round.
Yeah, the lips have a memory
So the magazines are made of high carbon steel that is heat treated. The feed lip gap falls within a certain tolerance. If it changed either wider or narrower, the lips are going to move back towards their original positing anywhere from .002-.004″ so plan accordingly.
This is where experience matters with the mags you are working with. Once you have your dimensions figured out, you may find you need to bend further than the nominal dimension so when the sheet metal starts to relax it will stop in the range you want.
You may also find that the metal does most of its movement in some number of minutes after you do the initial tune and need to do it one more time. Some guys will wait overnight to do the final tuning. I wait at least 30 minutes.
What about left and right bends to the feed lips?
The more you bend the feed lips in one direction too much, the round will point that way and either glance the chamber wall or actually slam into the chamber and stop depending on how off you are. Try and get the cartridge to point into the center of the chamber in terms of left to right.
This is an 80% RIA frame that I used during prototyping. I’m not enough of a machinist to actually complete it but it really helps you see what is going on. If the right feed lip is bent too much to the right then the round will go in that directton – same for the left lip. You want to point the round into the center of chamber.
What about the follower?
It’s really interesting how important the follower is. On one hand it is pushing the rounds up againt the feed lips properly and on the other, there is a small “shelf” on the front left edge that pushes the slide stop lever up and locks the slide open on empty (unless you are using competition followers such as the Arredondos that purposefully do not lock the slide open).
The walls at the top of the 9mm mag really need to taper inward to properly channel the staggered round into the single exit position at the top. The follower’s sides need to be appropriately tapered and rounded as well less they drag on the walls. The original Mec-Gar followers have significant drag that you can feel when loading the mgazine so revising them made the most sense.
The Arredondo follower is on the left. It is more angled and rounded on the right side in this photo than the Mec-Gar on the right. The Arredondo was desined for competition is when you look at the bottom right edge of each you will see the Arredondo slopes down fast so it will not raise the slide stop lever. The Mec-Gar has a more elevated edge that will lock the slide open. Our modified Mec-Gar followers improve reliability by having more rounded edges but still can lock the slide open.
By the way, to make life more colorful, when you install the follower the spring tension will spread the feed lips wider by about 0.002-0.004″.
How about the spring?
The Mec-Gar springs are okay. How much spring is enough or to little really depends on how well it can keep constant upwards pressure on the follower to move the rounds up fast enough and keep them in position. With the drag on the follower reduced, the spring can do its job.
There is an exception though – if you add a magazine extension or base plate that adds capacity, the spring really ought to be longer so get a Wolff or Arredondo spring that can supply the pressure over a longer distance.
The top assembly has the a easy to identify blue Arredondo follower and longer spring. The spring is made by Wolff but is bent to properly hold the Arredondo follower. The black follower and shorter spring are the original Mec-Gar units.
Yes, springs can and do wear our so if you feel the follower is being pushed up sufficiently or is sluggish *and* the walls do not appear bent then you probably need a new spring.
What about lubricant?
Mec-Gar mags come with some lubricant all over the insides of the mags, follower, spring, floor plate and base plate. On one hand it protects against corrosion but on the other it can attract dirt.
I would recommend that you use a good dry lubricant film. I used to use Dupont’s Teflon dry lubricant film spray but they discontinued it over environmental and health concerns about Teflon. The company is now producing a dry film using a ceramic technology that I really like and find it does a remarkable job at lubricating magazines.
If you are in a marine environment and you need the corrosion protection the use the oil of your choice – you need to worry about rust, I get it. For me, the Dupont Dry Film Lube aerosol spray does a great job. The new followers and the inside of the magazine tubes coated with this enables remarkably smooth movement of the follower.
Number your magazines
A tip you really ought to consider is to number your magazines so you can keep track of them. I like stickers because you can readily remove them if you put a baseplate on a different magazine tube but there are plenty of guys who use a permanent marker or etcher to uniquely identify each magazine.
The benefit of doing this is that when you are at the range if you find that some magazine is having problems, you can write down or take a photo of the number and know what you need to work on. Face it, if you have a bunch of mags and they all look pretty similar it can be hard to keep track of them otherwise.
By numbering the magazines, I can track dimensions and performance over time.
We do sell the stickers if you are interested – click here.
I’m still learning
I don’t claim to know everything – let me right up front about that. I now know what people mean whey they say “The more I learn, the less I know”. In other words, as I learn more I am increasingly aware that there is a ton of stuff I don’t know.
Hopefully this gives you some insight about why one magazine will work great but then another one doesn’t. The above are things to consider.
My reason for writing this is to give you some idea of what we’ve learned and are building into each 9mm magazine that you buy from us – we aren’t just relabeling mags and selling them at a heck of a mark up.
What are are doing is ensuring the dimesions, doing the necessary modifications and testing teach magazine in one of our 9mm RIA pistols to ensure you get a reliable mag. If you have problems with a magazine from us, we will definitely make it right.
We do have a new post about how to load our v2 9mm magazines to get reliable feeding. Click here for it.
Note, I have to buy all of my parts – nothing here was paid for by sponsors, etc. I do make a small amount if you click on an ad and buy something but that is it. You’re getting my real opinion on stuff.
If you find this post useful, please share the link on Facebook, with your friends, etc. Your support is much appreciated and if you have any feedback, please email me at info@roninsgrips.com. Please note that for links to other websites, I may be paid via an affiliate program such as Avantlink, Impact, Amazon and eBay.
Starting in 2021, I started to offer 10mm magazines for the Rock Island Armory A2 HC pistols – “A2” being a marketing opportunity to refer to the next generation 1911A1 pistol prototyping the US Army did starting in 2004 that experimented with different sights, extractors, mainsprings, etc. The “HC” stands for high capacity and reflects the RIA pistols are using a staggered magazine design to hold far more rounds than a single stack could.
At any rate, I had a number of customers ask me to produce mags for the 9mm RIA A2 HC pistols – the 51679 Tac Ultra and the 56645 Pro Ultra Match HC. Our 10mm mags had proven to be very successful and after enough requests, I decided to enter the 9mm magazine market.
One thing I learned with making AK grips is that you really need to have the weapon to make a part for it. This allows you to check fitment, reinforce potentially weak areas, etc. So, when I started with the 10mm mags, I bought a 52009 Rock Ultra HC and later a 56862 Tac Ultra Match HC. Why? Because you also find that a given firearm may differ enough that if you build and test only with it, you may not be making something others can use.
There’s an engineering problem called “stacked tolerance”. Every part has a specification that says, for example “9.0mm” and then there is a tolerance specified – for example “+/- .01”. That means the part produced can range from 8.99 to 9.01 in size. Make an assembly and all of those tolerances may combine, or “stack” in such a way that if you build a part to work for that particular unit then another assembly that happens to stack in the other direction may not be able to use that part. Testing on multiple pistols helps with a testing – at least a bit because you are reducing the odds of one pistol having a problem or working and others not.
So, by having both the 52009 and 56862 10mm pistols, I could test magazines to make sure they fed right, dropped free, etc. With the 9mm pistols, I had limited funds and just started with the 51679 – the Tac Ultra. That decision bit me hard.
The Initial Magazine Prototyping Didn’t Make Sense
When I prototype, I buy a bunch of original magazines and then start looking for what is close enough to modify and start tinkering with the feed lips, feed angles, the spring and the follower. To keep track of things, I applied numbered stickers to every magazine and kept track of the dimensions plus performance.
What I also learned with the 10mm mags is that the best dummy rounds are the machined aluminum A-Zoom Snap-Caps. Dummy rounds that are made from a case and a bullet will see the bullet pushed back into the case and/or get deformed after some fairly low number of cycles. The machined aluminum A-Zoom Snap-Caps are dimensionally accurate and can cycle hundreds of times before needing to be replaced. By the way, don’t do this type of work with live rounds – it’s an accident waiting to happen.
Back to the 9mm world, I was working on the mags and things just didn’t make sense. A magazine would work and then it wouldn’t. One set of dimensions would work and then they wouldn’t. Something just wasn’t adding up. The pistol would fail to eject randomly, I’d then have the old round and the new round in the slide at the same time and of course it jammed.
It had to be the mags right? I blew through a bunch of mags and time before it dawned on me that the pistol itself must have issues. I hadn’t questioned it before because the pistol was brand new out of the box. Sure, I had cleaned and lubed it first before cycling hundreds of snap caps through it. The problem was that I assumed it was good to go and the initial testing seemed to show a reliable pistol … but I only tested a few mags worth of snap caps – maybe 34-52 cycles max.
Testing The First Pistol
I loaded a magazine up, racked the slide and loaded a snap cap. I then pulled the slide back slowly and the extractor lost control of the extracted round as I pulled the slide to the rear. That wasn’t supposed to happen. If I went slow, it would either fail to extract completely or lose control of the round.
I’m not a 1911 gunsmithing guru but I had to learn some stuff really fast. I knew if I sent the pistol back to Rock Island/Armscor, it would be at least a month before I would get it back. So I read posts and watched videos that explained the pistol had an extractor problem and how to correct it. I bought a few different brands of 9mm extractors, the Brownells extractor tool, the Jack Weigand extractor gauge and tensioning tool.
Boy, I could not get that thing to work even after trying a few different brand extractors and a Wilson. At this point I was pretty ticked off. My last best guess was that the extractor looked like it was clocked slightly. When I inserted the Weigand 9mm gauge, I could feel initial tension as I inserted it and then it would drop off rapidly as I inserted the gauge the rest of the way (it centers over the firing pin hole). Rather than do a new firing pin stop plate, I decided to stop chasing best guesses mainly because I was blowing time I did not have to spend. The pistol was under warranty so feeling both stupid and defeated, I finally got an RMA to send the pistol back.
No, I’m Not Incredibly Patient
In the meantime, I bought a 56645 Pro Ultra Match HC and it has worked great – no problems at all. I was able to work out the details on the mags. Now, I am not patient so I actually ordered a second 51679 Tac Ultra that I looked at, cycled a few rounds through but really didn’t use a great deal – my primary go-to test platform was the 56862 … until I decided to take some photos about the RIA 9mm A2 HC pistols and looked at the 51679’s extractor.
The second 51679 is at the top and the 56862 Tac Ultra Match is at the bottom. The Match pistol has nice checkering on the front of the grip, the top of the exposed barrel is a grey matte finish and has a target rear sight.
“You’ve got to be kidding me” – I thought to myself. Inserting a choice F bomb of course. The extractor in the brand new 51679 that probably has less than 100 hand cycled Zoom snap caps through it was almost completely broken off other than a little tiny nub on one end. WTF?!?!
I was happily taking photos for a blog post when I saw the silver grain of the busted extractor. Yeah, I was swearing up a storm. Really?
Okay, two 51679s bought from different vendors off Gunbroker about a month apart both having extraction problems …. wow. I’ll be honest – I’m disappointed. RIA 1911s are econobox models but they usually work – so, no, I’m not remotely happy not to mention jumping through hoops waiting for ever for their customer service to respond. I did learn a bunch though and will share with you what I did and what you can do if you want to.
Metal Injection Molding For Extractors Isn’t The Best Choice
The problem is that to keep costs down, Armscor, who owns the Rock Island brand, make the ejector using Metal Injection Molding (MIM). If you search on the web, you will see a ton of guys arguing against the use of MIM in high stress parts. As I just learned with extractors, it’s not the strongest manufacturing approach – making them from forged high-quality steel is a far better idea.
I removed the extractor from the pistol and zoomed in as best I could to get you this photo. You can see the grainy structure that is a signature of metal injection molding. That nub at the top right edge in the photo was just enough to yank the case out of the chamber … sometimes.
Okay, if you get a new RIA 9mm pistol, check the extractor out of the box. Clean and lube it, go to the range and keep your eye on the extractor. If it breaks you have two options – send it back to Rock Island/Armscor for a RMA repair or do it yourself. Heck, you could even just replace the extractor yourself before you have a problem if you want to.
I Decided To Replace the Extractor Myself
I learned a ton on that first pistol plus I had all of the tools and spare Wilson Combat extractors. I just needed to trust in my abilities a bit more and try it again. If there’s one thing I know about myself, it’s that I am persistent and don’t give up easy. With this in mind, I dove back in again with far better results.
The top is the failed Rock Island 9mm ejector and it is a series 70 design. The lower extractor is a state of the art forged 9mm extractor from Wilson Combat. It is a series 80 design but will work just fine in a series 70 pistol.
Fully Machined from S7 shockproof tool steel with a tensile strength of 275,000 PSI
Optimized hook design for maximum strength and case rim contact
Hook location tolerances held to +/- .001″
Radiused corners for extended life and smooth feeding
Enhanced design holds tension longer over factory part many times over
Heat treated to optimum hardness and cryogenically treated
Guaranteed for life against breakage or we will replace at no cost to you
Note: I went with a series 80 extractor because they were in stock even though the RIA pistols are based on a series 70 design. You can use a series 80 extractor in a series 70 pistol but not vice versa. You can get them from Brownells, Wilson directly and other places.
Recommended Tools
You don’t need specialized tools but if you can afford them, I would highly recommend the following:
Weigand’s extractor tension gauge set – let’s you precisely dial in extractor tension. Note, I did add a brass s-hook so I can grab it with a trigger pull gauge more easily.
Lyman – Mechanical Trigger Pull Gauge – even though I have some digital trigger pull gauges, I lacked a mechanical unit and there are times where it is handy to see an analog scale changing vs. flashing numbers you can’t read so I bought it regardless. Yes, if you have a trigger pull gauge already, you can use it.
The long angled tool is the 1911 Extractor Tool from Brownells and totally worth it in my opinion. The long angled end lets you reach into the slide and push extractor back and then down into the hole for removal. The other end is perfect sized for pushing down the firing pin to aid with the removal and installation of the firing pin stop. Note the blue A-Zoom snap cap – that is the color of their volume packs of rounds. Exact same material and tolerances – just a different color.
The silver block with the red handle is Weigand’s tool for adjusting extractor tension. The big orange thing is the Lyman mechanical trigger pull gauge. The brass plate is the gauge with a brass S-hook that I added. The gauge is sold as a set and each end is for a different caliber. The hole you see is actually for lining up on the firing pin hole – I just added the S-hook on the .38 end because I don’t have any plans to shoot .38 Super. Note, the small blade screw driver makes it real easy to nudge the firing pin up or down so the firing pin stop plate can be pushed into position.
Make sure your pistol is unloaded – that the chamber is empty and a loaded magazine is not inserted. In short, work safe. Also, do not use live ammo for testing – use snap caps.
Let me give you an overview and then a couple of videos to watch:
Remove the slide
Remove the firing pin stop plate by pushing down with the straight short end of the extractor tool and then slide the plate off. Be CAREFUL that the firing pin and/or spring don’t come flying out as you remove the plate.
Push the extractor backwards by pushing the head of extractor backwards down the hole out the rear of the slide
Insert the new extractor and line it up so the stop plate can be re-inserted. It needs to line up with the top and bottom of the stop plate groove and it needs to be straight up and down parallel to the sides. You don’t need to install the firing pin and spring until you are done.
Insert the Weigand gauge and pull it out using the trigger pull gauge to find out how many ounces it takes.
Use the Weigand tensioning tool to increase or decrease the tension. I dialed mine in to 28 ounces (1.75 pounds).
You can try testing feeding and extracting dummy rounds to see how it performs. The extractor should maintain control until the extracted dummy round hits the ejector.
Once it is dialed in, you can then re-install the firing pin return spring, lube the firing pin and reinstall it also.
There’s a trick to the plate – wiggle it in and push down the firing pin enough to get the plate to sit on the “shelf” at the rear. You can then maintain pressure on the plate and use the other hand to use the extractor tool to push the firing pin down far enough and hold it there while you push the plate back into place.
More Details
Wilson has a video on how to change to their extractor and a bit about setting the tension:
The following is a video of Jack Weigand explaining how to use his extractor gauges and tensioning tool:
Adjusting The Extractor Landing Pad
The most detailed post and guidance in general about extractors that I read is here – and if you read down, you will get to sections/replies about 9mm extractors. One thing you will notice discussed is reprofiling the “fitting pad” to better fit the radius of the extractor hole. I stoned and polished the fitting pad to be more rounded but that was it. I put more emphasis on getting a weight in the 25-28oz range and did do that after may 3-4 tries.
Pulling the gauge out the final time was about 1-3/4 pounds which is 28 oz. In testing the pistol, extraction was just fine.
Was The Match Pistol Higher End?
I wondered if maybe more care was put into the match pistol. There are some nice perks in terms of features but the trigger feels about the same between the two pistols. I’ll write up something more detailed down the road – for now let me just say they pistols are not night and day different in terms of how they feel with cycling the slide or pulling the trigger.
In terms of pricing, there’s not a huge difference on Gunbroker. The first 51679 was bought on 3/5/22 for $819.99, the Match pistol was $899.00 on 3/25/22 and the second 51679 was bought on 4/3/22 for $899.00 also. In writing this, it’s surprising that the Match wasn’t $100-200 more on the street but it wasn’t. If you look at the manufacturer’s suggested retail price (MSRP) – Armscor did set the 51679 at $899 and the Match 56645 at $1099. In other words, Armscor was hoping the Match would command a premium.
You can find the 51679 pistols right now with a bit of hunting. The 56645 match pistol is challenging to find as it seems to be a bit more rare now but it is out there too. I’d tell you to get the 56645 Pro Ultra Match HC if you can find it. As you can imagine, I’m not too thrilled with my 51679 experience right now and there is little to no price difference *if* you can find one.
Conclusion
I’m not sure what to tell you about what happened – I only have data from two 51679 pistols and one 56645 pistol. It could just be really bad luck – neither of my current 10mm pistols have given me any trouble and the 56645 Pro Ultra Match has been fine so far as well although I have only cycled maybe 500-600 snap caps through it so far.
The first 51679 had something going on that I can’t explain and am waiting on Armscor to fix it under warranty. It certainly was not a broken extractor. For the second one to have a snapped extractor claw with so very few rounds – I guess that highlights the limitation of MIM and that forged extractors are better – there’s a reason why Wilson’s Bullet Proof extractors have such a good reputation.
6/22/22 Update: RIA did a warranty repair after about 4-5 weeks. All they told me was that they confirmed the extraction problem, fixed it and the pistol was fully operational now. So, I still don’t know exactly what happened but at least Armscor/RIA stood behind it and made things right.
We’ll see what Armscor comes back with regarding the first pistol and I’ll report it here. I guess the big thing I want folks to know is that changing an extractor is not an arcane black magic endeavor. There are tons and tons of videos and posts that you can read. At some point you just need to wade in, give it a go and learn.
My other lesson learned is that don’t replace a busted Armscor extractor (MIM) with the same thing. Upgrade. I decided to go with Wilson Combat due to all the good reviews I read and would recommend that.
I still have a lot to learn about 1911s and don’t claim to know much. I’m really focused just on the mags but I hope this helps out anyone who reads it.
A Stunningly Good 1911 Reference Book Recommendation
6/29/23 Update: The match 9mm MIM extractor is still doing just fine and I have no idea how many thousands of times it has been cycled. The Wilson is doing great on the other pistol also.
12/17/22 Update: I’m somewhat surprised – the original MIM extractor in the Match 9mm is still doing just fine thousands of rounds later. So is the Wilson but I am not surprised about the Wilson holding up.
Note, I have to buy all of my parts – nothing here was paid for by sponsors, etc. I do make a small amount if you click on an ad and buy something but that is it. You’re getting my real opinion on stuff.
If you find this post useful, please share the link on Facebook, with your friends, etc. Your support is much appreciated and if you have any feedback, please email me at info@roninsgrips.com. Please note that for links to other websites, I may be paid via an affiliate program such as Avantlink, Impact, Amazon and eBay.
S&B 180gr FMJ round. The black “flaps” over the back of the cartride are known as the “feed lips”. They serve to limit how far the cartridge sticks up, the vertical angle as well as the left-to-right angle. On our magazines, it is the front of the lips, or right right edge of the lips in this photo, that are key for proper positioning of the round.
When I first started the magazines, I was setting the front edge of the feed lips between 0.36 and 0.375. In talking with customers who have bought the mags and were having feeding problems (notably stovepiping) , when the magazine lips were down at the lower end of 0.360″. I’d walk them through setting the gap for their pistol and at the end, I would have them measure the final front lip gap that worked. It was usually between 0.370 and 0.390″ and averaged 0.380″.
June 2024: The nominal front feed lip gap is 0.375 +/- 0.002. 0.380 seems to be the average maximum but the best average gap is that 0.373-0.377 range. Your pistol might vary so look at how the bullet points towards the chamber – either straight in or just slightly below. Some tinkering will help you figure out what is best for your pistol and the types of ammo you are shooting.
Here is a photo with labels.
There are a lot of different 10mm cartrdiges on the market. Look at the different bullet shapes – the different angles can all affect reliable feeding which is one of many reasons why you may find one pistol likes one ammo and can cycle it all day long but not another.
Adjusting the Feed Lips Isn’t Hard
I’d recommend the following tools for the adjustments:
1/2-3/4 pound non-marring mallet – or even both. A lighter one for fine adjustments and a heavier one for coarse adjustments. It doesn’t take much to bend the lips. (May 2024 Update: I started using sheet metal hammers maybe a year and a half ago and find that they work great. The force of the strike bends the metal very nicely and doesn’t hurt the finish so while the photos all say use a non marring mallet – I would tell you to get some basic light sheet metal / body work hammers. Cheap ones break down quickly as the face of the hammer is weak so read reviews and get a good one. You just need a decent flat face and not a lot of weight – look at Martin, Fairmount, Performance Tool, etc.)
A pair of snap ring or malleable chandalier pliers that can spread the lips open. I highly recommend the Westinghouse 70099 pliers specifically because they have nice wide jaws that really help you make solid contact with the lips. Other brands have narrower jaws, probably to lower costs, that work but want to roll over on you while you are adjusting.
A pair of straight plastic jawed pliers come in hand if you need to tweak the lips left or right. I like the Beadsmith Parallel Pliers with nylon jaws for this work.
A vise with non-marring jaws or some means to hold the mag without crushing or excessive scratching
Use Zoom Snap Caps to test cycling vs live ammo. In general, snap caps or action proving rounds are a good idea to avoid misfires. There’s also a second reason – the recoil springs in the RIA pistols are robust and if the bullet from a live round or dummy round (a bullet loaded into a case that does not have powder or a primer) smacks hard into something, it will get pushed back further and further into the case plus they deform easily. All of my testing is done with solid aluminum snap caps now. I use A-Zoom 10mm Snap Caps for both my 10mm and .40 S&W mags. I’ve had positive feedback from owners of .40 S&W pistols so I know they work for both. Note I do NOT use A-Zoom snap caps for 9mm as the bullet shape does not remotely reflect common 115gr FMJ ammo at all.
From left to right bottom row: Vaughan 3/4 pound NT-125 mallet, Vaughan 1/2 pound NT-100 mallet and Westinghouse 7009900 lighting fixture chain pliers. The Vaughan mallets hold up great – the plastic is both pretty solid and robust so tapping in the feed lips goes very smoothly.
The Westinghouse pliers make opening the feed lips wider a very easy job. You could also use snap ring pliers but they will not distribute the pressure the same or be as easy to use.
The Westinghouse pliers have wide jaws – meaning left to right in the photo above. I’ve bought a number of chain pliers and the cheaper ones do not have as wide of jaws and have a tendency to want to roll when you are applying pressure. They work – but take a bit more control on your part.
Procedure to follow
Ensure your pistol is unloaded and no ammo is immediately nearby that might get accidentally loaded during testing.
Okay, let’s walk through the steps:
Checking Cartridge Alignment
Lock the slide open
Put a snap cap in the magazine
Insert the magazine into the pistol
From different angles, look at where the catridge is pointing in the chamber. Imagine a line from the center of the bullet going straight forward – where is it hitting? You will want to make small adjustments and test over and over until you get that bullet pointing into the center of the chamber (no, it does not need to be perfect).
The front edge of the feed lips are adjusted such that the cartridge is aiming into the middle of the chamber vertically and horiztontally.
Adjusting The Vertical Angle
On most mags, including our’s, the angle the bullet sits at is adjusted by changing the gap of the front mag lips. The back can’t be adjusted because it will buckle or crack given the right angle bend to the back. What happens is that by opening the front of the mag lips, the front of cartridge sits higher (meaning it is a steeper angle). Correspondingly, by narrowing the front of the mag lips, the cartridge can’t rise up as far and the bullet sits lower.
The circle representing a cartridge is the same size in both figures. By making the gap wider on the right, the circle rises up higher before it contacts the black feed lips.
The angle is often the biggest problem. If the bullet isn’t angled enough, it gets stripped from the magazine by the slide and will either slam straight into the feed ramp and stop or it will hit, shoot up at a 45 degree angle jamming the pistol open – this is known as “stovepiping”. In both of these cases, you would want to open the lips up until there is proper feeding.
There is such a thing as the lips being too wide and hitting the top of the chamber or literally falling out. The feed lips need to be narrower than the case diameter of 0.421″ for sure otherwise the case will literally fall right through the lips.
I set the lips at 0.375 +/- 0.002 and you will need to see what works best for your pistol and the type(s) of ammo you are shooting. You may find you need a couple of mags at one gap for the type of HP ammo you are shooting and a couple of mags for FMJ. Personally, my pistols run all of my S&B, Buffalo Bore and Underwood ammo with that 0.373-0.377 range.
To open the front of the lips, use the chain pliers shown above on the front of the feed lips. It doesn’t take much pressure to open (or close) the feed lips so you will need to get the “feel” for how much to squeeze.
To close the front of the lips, tap the left feed lip in and then the right feed lip in equal amounts using the mallet. If you aren’t careful then you are liable to have the bullet pointing too far left or right even though the gap is the same.
Note, it doesn’t take much force with the mallet to move the lips. If you go crazy and crush the lips such that the gap dips below 0.33″, you may find that the throat of the magazine bent and the follower will not longer be able to pass. You don’t want this to happen so make small adjustments, measure and test over and over.
Adjusting the Horizontal Angle
You have a few ways to adjust the left to right horizontal angle. The first is to tap the lips in the direction you need. You can hit in the outside edge of the lip to close it or the right side to open it. I don’t use this because I find it takes too long.
I like to use parallel plastic jawed pliers that fit right inside the lip and let me easily adjust the angle with a good deal of control.
Here’s another look at the lips without a cartridge present.
Here’s a magazine with a 180 grain FMJ round by S&B loaded.
It really helps to number your magazines so you can keep track of feed lip gaps, which ones are having problems, etc.
Summary
Each pistol can vary slightly so each magazine may need different feed lip gaps. Going forward, the feed lip gap on our 10mm and .40 S&W magazines will vary between 0.370 and 0.380″. This gives you a starting point but you may find a bit of final tweaking of the feed lips beneficial.
If you are reading this and are not using our magazines, your feed lip gap may differ.
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